Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice is an incredible follow-up to Man of Steel and lead into Justice League. The title characters are honored and rendered in a sincere and sophisticated way like never before on film. The underlying inspirations are respected and taken seriously with genuine affection and artistry. An emotional, suspenseful, and dramatic journey. Smart characters and plotting, stunning visuals and action.
An absolute must-see for superhero fans.
Buy your tickets, mark your calendars to prepare for repeat viewings, it’s satisfying on a visceral level but loaded with nods, homages, citations, references, and ideas which warrant noticing and discussion.
I had the privilege of attending the IMAX event last year which ended in the generous surprise of seeing the film on March 21st in IMAX, which opens with Zack imploring the audience to respect the viewing experience of those yet to see the film. So I’m trying to keep this short. I’m seeing the film again in 70mm opening night and again Easter Weekend, so more in-depth discussion to come. For now, please allow this to act as a reassurance of quality along metrics of concern for longtime fans.
Superman is Honored
This is The World of “Man of Steel” Introducing The Batman (featuring Wonder Woman). Superman and the Man of Steel mythos is central to the film, from the events, to the fixtures and world building, to the characters, themes, arcs, and plot points. Irrespective of the fears of some Superman fans, Batman v. Superman more than honors the character of Superman within a modern and relevant context. It is a reverse Watchmen in some sense. Man of Steel fans will be surprised. I’ve already said too much.
If Man of Steel was “What if Superman were real?” this extends the concept to “What if Superman was just the beginning?”
Batman is Honored
While this is Batman’s introduction, it is for this universe, the canonization of everything comic book about the character while in a cinematically plausible presentation. The singular thing this film leaves you with is the desire for more of everything in the best sense. The same sense of potential and possibility, a world teeming with more, found in Man of Steel is magnified several times over due in no small part to Batman’s introduction. It’s The Dark Knight Returns reimagined as Justice League Zero Year.
DC Cinematic Universe Begins
There’s no turning back after this film, it demands more and it is the Empire Strikes Back of the Man of Steel – Batman v. Superman – Justice League trilogy. That hope and yearning captures the spirit of what makes superheroes and comic books so compelling.
This Is Not A Review
Originally, I was going to write blurbs on emotional impact, visuals, soundtrack, action scenes, dialogue, characterization, plotting, structure, and other metrics, but you should experience this for yourself and make up your own mind and then we’ll talk and exchange ideas. On that note, I don’t think this (or any other) work is immune to criticism (valid or otherwise) or disgruntled hatred, so don’t allow others to hold too much sway over your enjoyment or thoughts about the film.
Personally, I feel like this film vindicates many of the creative choices made in Man of Steel and beyond, but reasonable minds will differ and we’ll certainly get into that when the time comes. For the general audience, other than the introduction of Batman and Wonder Woman, the dialogue is more cinematic and coherence and comprehensibility is generally higher (maybe a tad too much spoon feeding in some places for me, but probably best for general audiences)… however, there are still a ton of puzzles to unravel, particularly as they relate to Lex Luthor. The film can be enjoyed and comprehended on a completely visceral level, but I can already anticipate digging deeper on repeat viewings.
Conclusion
I’m not really prone to spontaneity. I mulled on Man of Steel a year after release before I felt like I had to say something and had enough to say. So these are my guarded first thoughts with only the car trip home to reflect and typing this out with lots of self-censoring at 2AM in the morning. The results are admittedly very cliche sounding but no less my immediate and sincere reactions.
I highly recommend this in IMAX incidentally, the aspect ratio and IMAX scenes were incredible. I’ll let you know how 70mm compares as soon as I can.
You owe it to yourself to see this movie with an open mind more than once. Much like seeing The Force Awakens after years of anticipation, that can overwhelm the first viewing and while I don’t think it detracted from my first viewing, I think I was incredibly tense throughout.
I absolutely can’t wait to watch it again. To enjoy it. To study it. To think about it and chew on it. I absolutely see the potential for that with this film.
Glad you got to see it early, and thanks for the (careful) reaction. I look forward to your content this weekend.
Congrats on seeing it early! You deserved it! Glad you liked it, though not remotely surprised. I have no doubt I will enjoy it, and I’m really looking forward to having everything finally revealed. Can’t wait! (Though I have to – can’t see it until Tuesday. Wamp wamp.)
I got to watch the early screening too. I’m so glad you got to watch it, as I have been hooked on your site since I stumbled upon it looking for people that enjoyed Man of Steel as much as I did! It’s funny, as I came away from the movie absolutely wired, I was trying to piece together what I watched and why I enjoyed it so much and why I was still thinking about it many hours after watching it.
And what you usually say in your podcasts stuck with me. I have to paraphrase here, but the movie was a big juicy steak… in fact maybe a steak buffet! It really has to be taken in and digested! I really enjoyed it, and am looking forward to hearing your thoughts about it!
What’s going on with Rotten Tomatoes? Everybody seem to say the film is great or okay but there seems to be a good number of critics who were chomping at the bit to say it wasn’t good. Is that system rigged?
RT itself isn’t the problem, is the critics that harbour some type of prejudice against many aspects of the film.
Made by DC, the continuation of MoS, not Christian Bale’s Batman, directed by Zack Snyder, things some people are ready to detest without giving a proper chance. I already came into terms that many critics that review for RT wouldn’t give this film a chance regardless of how good it is, what saddens me a bit is that many people takes RT’s verdict as fact instead of making their own conclusions. MoS’s rating there ultimately didn’t harmed its BO profit, but it would’ve been a bit better if many critics would’ve been more open minded so more sheep-minded people would’ve supported the film.
“Dawn of Justice” would be a commercial success even better than “Man of Steel”, that’s an unavoidable fact, and the “DC Films Universe” will continue regardless of the RT score. Worry not, just enjoy what you like.
@Megasteel, that is very true. There was one critics who tweeted before the end of the embargo that they hated Zack Snyder and would never give any of his films a good review even before they saw the picture. That is just not professional let alone honest and impartial journalism and I would even question the caliber of the person who would even post or tweet such a thing publicly.
The early Rotten Tomatoes stuff is frustrating. I’ve looked across some of it, and there do seem to be some who were ready to pounce on the “WB is frantic to catch up” or “there’s too much packed in” narrative. There were also several that said the movie was not “fun” or it was “humorless” and they gave negative reviews. I would chalk this up to expecting the wrong thing.
To me, the most frustrating reviews are the ones that are saying it’s just visuals with no substance. I honestly think the philosophical and psychological themes went over these folks heads. Forbes’ Mark Hughes had a great review laying out the philosophical implications of the characters, and Doc on this site is alluding to some nice depth. I don’t think this is just a matter of opinion — shallow v. deep. I think there is depth, and some people are just missing it. (Maybe the movie could have made it clearer, but that’s not always the way to go.)
Also, we should check back tomorrow. There are only 44 reviews in there right now (39% positive, average of 5.5/10). But there will probably be 300 reviews eventually, so it’s a small sample thus far.
They criticize it for being style over substance and not following MARVEL’s example, yet virtually everything MARVEL does is style over substance. They claim it’s still better than MoS, yet they still call it bad. Disguised hypocrisy is still hypocrisy.
I only hope general audiences are free willed enough to actually see the film for themselves and reach their own conclusions. They mostly did with MoS, hopefully they will with BvS.
Hey, Awkward, huge fan of your podcast.
I was looking for any kind of outlet that appreciated Man of Steel on the level that I did for a looooong time. The level of analytical depth in your podcast is amazing.
So I’m two days out from seeing BvS (in AVX no less) and the reviews are hitting. And i mean HITTING. I haven’t read any but this isn’t particularly surprising to me considering the problems critics had with MoS. I have heard the… complaints are similar.
I’ve always had the thought that any lover (or simply a liker) of MoS would get plenty out of BvS. I’m glad to see this is true with your initial thoughts. I have absolutely NO doubt that I’ll love this film. But that said, it’s still dissapointing to see the “majority” of critics aren’t soft on it.
I can’t help but fear that these kinds of reactions are going to sway WB/DC and/or impact the future of the DCEU in a negative way. MoS’s critical consensus didn’t help with its Box Office intake for example.
Sigh…I’m looking forward to these films too much to handle the thought of Marvel movies squashing all competition. I love Marvel movies but, come on…
I imagine you’re going to address the critics and naysayers on your next podcast (hopefully some kind of review), so I’m looking forward to your analysis and opinion on the matter and the film.
Seriously though, is anyone else as bothered by this as I am?
I feel like everyone’s bothered to be quite honest.
People were way too naive and dismissed people that maintained the notion that “If it’s not Marvel it won’t get a chance”, which if you check any of the reviews is the main point of contention, all the complaints seem to derive from them wanting it to be a Marvel movie(atleast the main ones).
Yeah it may not be stated directly but the notions are present.
“Not a lot of fun”
“Could have used more jokes”
“Grim”
These thoughts seem like extremes. As if this movie, or any other of the same tone, absolutely CANNOT be like this.
If you’re not having fun watching Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman kickass, while also having your mind stimulated beyond the normal boundaries of what superhero films usually offer… well I don’t know what to say to that.
I agree with Plasma that a lot of the negative reviews were based on comparing it to “fun” superhero movies rather than judging it based on what it was trying to be itself.
I did a full analysis of the reviews and bring up some of these issues, plus I note that comic-book-based sites seemed to rate it much higher than general press. Because I know folks here enjoy analysis, I’ll share a link: http://comicandscreen.blogspot.com/2016/03/interpreting-batman-v-superman-reviews.html
Thanks for the link.
Anyone notice our superhero films are going the way of the current cartoons in a way? Oversimplified, overly humorous, and demographically inclined for the young?
Fans of the analysis in MOSAIC may also enjoy this podcast that breaks down each individual scene of Batman v Superman: http://jluniverse.podomatic.com (Or at least this can hold folks over until the Doc has time for his take on it.)
Thank you, I’ve been needing to listen to something BvS positive while waiting for DR Awk.
Yeah, thank you for this. The wait for the good Doctor is a little easier now.
I’ve never seen such disparity between fans and RT critics on a movie, I’ve seen it with other movies but not to this extent.
While I personally don’t care for RT, it’s disheartening seeing the hate and viciousness seeping through from the RT critic reviews.
These reviews were “written” well before the movie finished production.
Actually reading through them is both satisfying and gut-wrenching and for the same reason, with 3/4 of the negative ones consisting of “It’s not Marvel!”.
This is both satisfying because it should not be that but also upsetting because of how blatantly and openly biased they are, they don’t even try to hide the fact that they’re ripping the movie for what it is but for what they insist it should be instead.
I have alot more to say but I feel like we can all see what’s going on.
Either way Dr.Akward thanks for the reaction and thanks for everything else you do.
The internet is melting, many poor fans are agonizing and already losing all hope. We would really benefit from an article or Podcast adressing the unfair criticisms this film is recieving.
I mean, many are putting it below MoS? How can there be so much prejudice and pre-concieved notions I cannot understand.
Thank god you guys are seeing the same thing I am in these negative reviews. I was beginning to feel a little paranoid. It’s not a conspiracy, but it does smack of a lazy, herd mentality groupthink. In the same way that every negative review I had read for Man of Steel invariably had some version of “It’s not Christopher Reeve!”, these are all riffing off “It’s not Bale,” or worse, “It’s not Marvel,” which is truly depressing.
I remember when I first got into comics as a 12-year-old, in 1983, because I realized they were far more “adult” than I assumed they were. I spent the next several years trying to convince non-comics readers of this fact, and at times I felt like I was talking to a brick wall. Everyone dismissed them as lighthearted kid stuff.
When the first Batman movie came out in 1989 and was a big hit, people started getting on board the idea that superheroes could be darker and more interesting, and then when the renaissance happened in 2000 with the X-Men and Spider-Man films, it seemed like superheroes were going to get their due as a medium for telling serious and intelligent stories. This of course culminated in 2008 with The Dark Knight, and I really thought it was going to be a game-changer. I presumed that future superhero films were going to push the envelope of style, artistry, philosophy and intelligence. Little did I know that the real game-changer that year was Iron Man, which ushered in the MCU and their more straightforward, “fun” approach to superheroes that treated the material seriously, but that people could bring their kids to.
Now, I liked those films as much as anyone, and I appreciated that they had successfully carved out a middle-ground between the lighter fare like Fantastic Four and the more complicated Spider-Man and X-Men films, but the fact that their success has basically become a de facto benchmark for superhero movie achievement is rather depressing, and has sent me back to feeling like that 12-year-old kid again, trying to convince grown-ups that superheroes can be intelligent, challenging and “deep,” and being met with the same dismissal that they’re supposed to be lighthearted and fun. Only this time those dismissals are coming from the fans themselves.
If the superhero genre is not going to “go the way of the Western,” as Speilberg supposes, it’s got to have a variation of styles and even sub-genres going on, and not become a monolithic formula that people go into with preexisting expectations. Think of the variation from 1998 to 2008: 7 studios combined to make about 30 movies ranging from small and lesser known (Blade, Hellboy), to big hits (Spider-Man, X-Men), and scattered throughout were tons of almost hits (Hulk, Superman Returns), non-starters (Daredevil, Punisher), flops (Catwoman, Elektra), moderate successes (Fantastic Four, Ghost Rider), and niche films (V for Vendetta, Constantine).
But look at the superhero landscape now: 3 studios are making essentially 3 giant franchises of interconnected movies: Avengers, X-Men, and Justice League. Now, the two established ones each have their own “house style,” with some variations, but it’s indisputable that Marvel has become the standard-bearer for superhero movies. WB is trying to carve out their own style, basically picking up on their biggest successes with the Batman franchise, and going deeper and darker than Marvel, more “serious” and “grounded.” I understand if that’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but that’s the whole purpose of variation, to give a wider range of fans something to watch and to hopefully quell any stagnation of ideas or innovation.
So for people to criticize these as “not Marvel” is not just a disservice to the films themselves, but to the genre at large. Allow for there to be something different, even if you don’t like it, even if it’s not as successful. Because god forbid if Marvel is left as the only game in town – then you’ll really see superhero movies ride off into the sunset…
My sentiments exactly…
I heard one reviewer say it was hard to follow; is that true?
“Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it’s a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.”
It certainly was not for me.
I already stated this but I’ll do it again, please return soon Dr, we really need your presence now. You can’t change critics’ opinions, but maybe you could help soothe some panicking fans that are already giving up and losing faith in the Justice League Universe.
We know you don’t have all the answers, but we really need an expert’s assessment in the current situation. Could all this ridiculous hatred really dent a film this big? And the planned franchise in the long term?
It’s 5:30 am because I’m about to go to court. I would do your best to empty your expectations and have an open mind first viewing, but if you can’t quell the critical reaction in your ear consider this: What was the very first line in the very first teaser?
Superman’s story in this film is very much about handling controversy, criticism, and unwarranted attacks. Watch what he does, what he doesn’t do, what he can’t help but do, etc. I promise you that you will find yourself along the spectrum of what occurs, I certainly do.
Thanks Dr, I always appreciate you taking time to answer, I will watch it with an open mind as you suggested, but I’m not as bothered from the critics’ opinions as much as what everyone is being troubled by: The impact it could have in the general audience and casual viewer.
Is saddening that many people puts their trust in a reviewing website that has been proved time and time again that is flawed, and not a good judgement of a film’s quality. Regular folk doesn’t cares much about philosophical themes, let alone in a genre that has been widely “reconfigured” as something that should only be “mindless” and “fun”. (I’m not saying MARVEL is to fault, but the inflexibility of many so-called film judges)
Again thanks for answering, I’ll wait for your actual review and commentary with anticipation.
I hope you do consider spending some time in the website Dr, some well-thought analysis and words of solace would really help us get through this phase.
My biggest concern is what Heart of Steel mentioned, could all this disgruntled hatred really harm “Dawn of Justice”? So far the opening numbers look promising, but the real tests are the following weeks, and the unfair criticism won’t help. It’s all but obvious that this film will win way more than MoS did, but according to some, a film this big is “supposed” to make at least a billion, otherwise it would be a “flop”.
I’m also aware that not all moviegoers pay close attention to critics, but in this case the ones that do are certainly either losing all excitement or actively wanting to bash on this film. Such thing is really frustrating cuz, like dnno1 stated above, some critics have publicly and openly admitted that they will never give Snyder a chance and will forever dislike his works regardless of how well made they would be, and it’s even more frustrating that there is people that take their judgement seriously.
We need you Dr, now more than ever.
Just saw this and all I can say is that I don’t understand all the hate.
But the reason I am writing now is that something funny just occurred to me. I have read a lot of comics in my life and it wasn’t until this movie that it hit me! Both Bruce and Clark’ mom’s are both Martha!!
I kid you not! I just figured that out because of that scene!
I don’t even…Like, how could I have missed this all those years?!
I loved it. Half the people I saw it with thought it kinda sucked, other half really really enjoyed it, and a couple stragglers in the middle.
I think it’s safe to say you have as much (probably more) to apologize and talk about this as Man of Steel. And I can’t wait.
Finally got my first watch, and I too must say that, even though I’m definitely high off the movie, I enjoyed every minute. An amazing successor to Man of Steel and a solid start to the DCEU.
If there was anything scratching the back of my mind, it was that somewhere out there, there is an extended cut with half an hour of footage that will allow the movie to breathe a bit. It was definitely overwhelming and fantastic and heavy and it made me giddy in a way that I have not been for this type of movie in a long time. A long time.
But yes, could’ve used breathing room, a little bit of fleshing out here and there; very minor things and nothing I would actually complain about. I can see the signs of possible studio fears regarding the template of the base film. (Too long for movigoers means a little less money, too deep a storyline means you’re going over some peoples heads). I look forward to the extended cut as much as I looked forward to the movie.
What an exhilarating theater experience.
I’ve seen it; its not going to be considered for best film of the year but its not as close to the pile of shit most critics are calling it.
I really hope the drop in box office isn’t by half or worse, we need this movie to hit at least movie to hit 800m worldwide to keep the JL dream going. There have to be enough DC fans out there to watch and enjoy this.
You keep fighting the good fight DrAwkward. DC needs you (and very one of us!) right now. I am also caught up with the podcast and love it. Below is my spoiler free Imdb review. Have fun with the film:
People fear what they don’t understand
I consider Sucker Puch to be Snyder´s only bad film, view the Ultimate Cut of Watchmen as one of the best adaptations of all time and adore the source material, so this film is tailor made for me. Especially due to my love for the utterly daring and highly polarizing Man of Steel. I also understand where some (but not all!) of the mixed reviews are coming from but share few of their opinions. First with the bad:
The film has a few rather weird editing choices and some scenes, as the juicy Justice League montage, need to be placed differently. The film is also too short despite being 2,5 hours long. I also expected a longer final battle, a proper introduction to Batman´s power suit, a stronger acknowledgement of how much carnage the 2 cities undergo at the end and less cutaways from the constant violence in general. There is also 1 scene of Superman in peril too many towards the end but i won´t go into spoilers. Some of these issues should be fixed with the longer/R-rated Director´s cut and i would have preferred more Darkseide teasers. None of these complains took away from my enjoyment and i was BLOWN AWAY by everything else. The film features top of the line directing and the best score Hans Zimmer/Junkie XL ever composed. The well constructed script explained all the clashing ideologies very well and is downright Nolan-esque, due to the continues involvement of mastermind David S. Goyer. Every single performance is some of the finest acting the A-level cast put on film. Especially Jesse Eisenberg. His psychotic and utterly unhinged Lex Luthor outshines even Heath Ledger. Gal Gadot is another standout and shows how well cast and though out the whole DCU truly is. Now to the titular heroes:
Ben Affleck matches Christian Bale and Kevin Konroy as being a definitive take on the character but don´t expect him to be “likable”. His version is a Frank Miller Batman gone too far and the film is a clear redemption arc for the bitter warrior. Some will be turned off by his high body count and his deeply flawed tunnel vision but that is the whole point of the film and especially the ending. Henry Cavill´s Superman is again on point and presents a tragic take on John Byrne´s and more importantly Dan Jurgens´ iconic version. I now repeatedly mentioned the source material but this film is an adaptation first and foremost, unlike the MCU competition. I am also a fan of their highly different films and they constantly veer off the source material but back on track. The mentioned creators (and many more) are proudly listed in the credits and produced some of the most iconic and bestselling comics of all time. I highly suggest to look them up, after digesting this monumental epos, and the film adapted way more of The Dark Knight Returns than i ever expected. This brings me to the film´s one glaring and fascinating “problem”. The films should be near incomprehensible to non-comic readers and may be the first 200+ million film that goes out it´s way to target an adult and comic literate audience! Young children, family audiences and casual fans are destined to hate this film and i am not even sure if i can call it a “mainstream” movie. The pacing is more comparable to a cerebral thriller and the whole product is a blatant deconstruction of messianic ideals, which will offend many on principle alone. A true Twilight of the Superheroes if you want. The best cinematic comparison i can make is the equally busy and enjoyable The Dark Knight Rises, which managed to forgo this film´s troubling reception due to the lack of fantastic elements. I further believe that all 3 of Zack Snyder´s current Superhero adaptations got unfair scrutiny because they dared to go beyond preconceived notions of what a big budget comic adaptation should be and hope that a future generations will reassess them and join me in the sun.
I can only conclude that i view the film as a complete and utter creative successes, despite a few sharp edges here and there. I also hope that this daring film will lead to more creativity and equal risks down the line, from all competitors on the market. The DCU weight on the right shoulders and it´s future is now in the hands of the fans, as never before.
The film often asks if there must be a Superman. I say YES and visionaries and as Zack Synder or David S. Goyer need to lead them. So vote with your money if your want to see these creators unleash Apokolips on earth, or stay at home.
8,5/10 (with the possibility of a 9/10 due to the upcoming Director´s Cut)
I saw the movie I thought it was great.
I don’t see what the haters hated about the movie.
I just watched it, and I agree with pretty much everyone: the film was magnificent!
The performance of everyone was topnotch, but what really stood out for me was Luthor. I mean it, the only other performance I can compare Eisenberg’s Luthor to is Ledger’s Joker, he’s so intelligent yet so insane, so charismatic and so sadistic, I felt that he stole the whole film. And as a Superman fan I really want to say that Henry Cavill truly outdid himself here, a very big improvement from MoS indeed, of all the characters, he’s the one I cared for and sympathized with the most, I felt sad when he did, smiled when he did, and even felt horror and despair when he did. Cavill is MY Superman.
And I couldn’t help but feel a very meta aspect as well, Superman in-film can really represent this film so far: hated with extreme prejudice and accused for faults that aren’t his, regardless of how hard he tried and how much good he did, people always found a way to detest him, kinda like this film so far.
I have no doubt now that those who accused the film for being “humourless” are indeed bias, there were at least 5 times when the whole theater cracked in laughs, there were several fun moments in the movie, denying such thing is confirming your own prejudice towards this film. Though some critics have no problem just admitting they are under prejudice, while some have no problem still taking their criticisms seriously.
Overall, I love this film, I will re-watch and support it as much as I can, but one thing for sure is that this website will be the only one I’ll frequent from now on. Almost all forms of social media and even fan sites are infested with trolls and/or people who hasn’t watched (and has admitted that will never watch) the film but still bash it. I don’t need such negativity, nobody does.
I watched the movie with my sister. She is a Batman fan and didn’t like Superman she was surprised at the end of the movie how much she cared about Superman. She was worried for Superman in the fight with Batman even though she wanted Batman to win. She said that she is now a fan of Superman.
That’s amazing that this movie could do that. Kudos to your sister for having an open mind. I completely agree except I was already a Superman fan, so when his scenes came up I loved it. My favorite was one with a certain surprise cameo. It gave me the feels
That scene where he’s in the explosion really helps to empathize with him. That whole scene was so good.
Hi Dr. Awkward, I’m grateful for your insight & commentary. Here is my apologia (defense) given for why I love MoS & BvS. One reason I love comic book superheroes & space opera adventures like StarWars & Superman can be owed to two men, not George Lucus or Seigel & Shuster (though I owe a lot too them for the joy they brought to my life, but actually it’s JRR Tolkien & CS Lewis.
These two Oxford professors were not quite different in that they wanted the same things, but through different methods, much like Batman & Superman. Lewis & Tolkien weren’t just contemporaries of their day, they were spiritual men & best friends. The story of how these two brilliant authors met, discovered their common love for mythical tales, & pledged to bring such stories into the mainstream of public reading taste is very encouraging.
Tolkien & Lewis shared the belief that through myth & legend – for centuries the mode many cultures had used to communicate their deepest truths – a taste of the Christian gospel’s “True Myth” could be smuggled past the barriers, biases, & polarizations of secularized readers. If it hadn’t been for the friendship between Tolkien & Lewis, the world would likely never have seen The Narnia Chronicles, The Lord of the Rings, or much else. What was it about “fairy stories” that led these two men to want to rehabilitate them for a modern audience – adults as well as children? I often ask the same question about comic book heroes & sci-fi fantasy which provide a similar affect for me & countless others, today, through the medium of film & television. What moves Zack Snyder & His team to bring us a true comic book myth lifted off the pages of DC comics & adapted to the medium of cinema.
Lewis & Tolkien had both personal & professional reasons for their interest. Personally, they had both read & enjoyed such stories as they were growing up, in collections by the brothers Grimm, Andrew Lang, & others. Lewis had also heard Celtic myths – his nurse had told him some of the folk tales of Ireland. And they both loved the story of King Arthor, the sword “Excalibur,” Camelot, & the Knights of the Round Table.
Side Note: It’s probably just a coincidence but I found it interesting that in the film BatmanVSuperman, young Bruce Wayne & his parents were exiting the film Excalibur just before his parents werer murdered. Is this a shadow of things to come, like it all happened one “dark knight” in Camelot. But I digress.
Professionally, tolkien & Lewis studied & taught the literatures of medieval romance &, in Tolkien’s case, the background of Norse myth. And they realized that it was only quite recently that such stories had become marginalized as “children’s stories.” Much like we see with the harsh tones of critics calling for all superhero stories to be made like one particular genre of films. All Superman movies must be “Christopher Reeves-ish” mold or like CW’s “Smallville”. All Batman films must be like Christian Bale model or Fox’s “Gotham”. All DC films must fit the Marvel blueprint. “Everything is Awesome! Everything is cool when you’re part of the team!” (The Lego Movie). I see Lewis & Tolkien then like I see Zack Snyder now – as deeply intellegent & visionary people.
Through much of history there were fairy tales told & enjoyed by grown-ups. Even strong warriors enjoyed them, rejoicing in their triumphant moments, weeping at tragic turns of events. These stories told them important things about life – about who they were & what the world was like, & about the realm of the divine.
It dawned on both Lewis & Tolkien that there was a need to create a readership again for these books – especially an adult readership. Lewis’s space trilogy & the Chronicles of Narnia came out of this same impulse to write the sort of stories that he & Tolkien liked to read. He felt he could say things in science fiction that he couldn’t say in other ways. And Tolkien had been expressing this sense already for years when the two men met -ever since World War One he had been writing hundreds of pages of a cycle of myth & legend from the early ages of Middle-earth. This, it would later turn out, would provide the “pre-history” for The Hobbit & The Lord of the Rings trilogy, & some other works which were published after his death in The Silmarillion.
This is great analysis.
Thinking about it if I have a complaint it is that I wanted to see more.
When the credits started my sister and I both said “it’s over already?”
Good thing the Ultimate Edition which releases on July 16th is 30 minutes longer and comes with the Theatrical version bundled in with the Ultimate Edition on Blu-ray.
That was my only complaint too. I feel that both WB and Snyder did the right thing at preparing a 3 hours long version and announcing it some time before the film’s release.
Haters can say what they want, Snyder is an amazing director and the only one fitted to direct both “Justice League” films. Films that I’m already anxious for.
Yep. Scenes were clearly missing but the biggest flaw with the film is that i couldn´t watch Justice League right after it. Hehe. The closing speech Lex gave was downright mesmerizing. Snyder will knock the 4th World out of the park and the film is already making mad money, so the DCU will now officially move on as planed. Well done fans and i was worried for a bit but we came though. Phew.
(I saw the film in 2D and could never image to see any film in 3D.)
Like ResidentGrigo, BvS left me extremely excited to see Justice League. I like the introduction to the characters, the tease of a potential villain, and Bruce’s motivation and inspiration from Superman at the end. (The movie made me really want to see JL, but I also wanted to see BvS again immediately after it finished!)
Looking forward to hearing your analysis on this magnificent film.
Take as long as you need.
Thanks.
I just found this, a very good written article by a person who really gets the film. Definitely worth a read.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2016/03/29/zack-snyder-loves-superman-and-batman-v-superman-proves-it/#1ad30bf4258e
Guys check this very insightful article: http://pulpklatura.tumblr.com/post/141843209469/batman-v-superman-the-modern-revenge-tragedy
Remember Chris Terrio said BATMAN V SUPERMAN being a modern revenge tragedy. Well the article that I posted have proven that. That explain where BvS utilizing the non-linear narrative storytelling structure. It basically following the tropes and formula of revenge tragedy first popularize by Shakespeare
Leon, thatnk you so much for the link. I haven’t even finished the article but it’s goddam brilliant and yet makes me so discouraged about the reception of this movie. I finally saw it this weekend and I left completely bewildered that this was the same movie that people have been trashing for a week. I know it sounds obnoxious, but I truly believe if you don’t like or get this movie you’re simply not smart enough to do so. I’m not saying I recognized the revenge tragedy aspect of it as I was watching it, but nothing about the plot or the pacing felt lost, cluttered, boring, overdone, underdone, or any of the other lazy, critic-speak adjectives used to bash this film. I sincerely don’t see how you could leave the theater and not be affecetd by this movie. I simpy can’t fathom the mindset that sat through that and came away with “why didn’t Superman do this?” or “why couldn’t Batman have done that?” type of plot-point nitpicking, while completely missing or ignoring the bigger ideas and points of the film. I’ve been mulling the notion that Snyder may be operating ahead of his time as it were, and certainly on a level that most critics and audiences can’t quite appreciate. I always hesitate to make such claims because they often feel defensive of true garbage, but I think the release of this movie may just cement that idea for me. LIke Blade Runner, 2001, and Alien, movies that are considered masterpieces now but were dismissed by critics when they first came out, I truly belive that much of Snyder’s oeuvre won’t be appreciated in full for at least a generation. I thought this movie was truly brilliant. Sad it won’t be seen as such for most people.
Yah agree on what you said about BvS being ahead of time. Exactly like what happen to watchmen
I agree that BvS is a bit too deep and philosophical to pull in Transformers- or Jurassic World-type box office numbers (and I also feel the same thing as Phil, that it’s hard to say that it might be too smart for many in the general audience… but, oh boy, if I see one more person claim that Lex had “no motivation”).
I think Man of Steel and BvS have both been successful, especially when you compare them to most of the movies in the MCU rather than comparing them to The Avengers movies only. But I do have a worry that WB is going to get tired of the divisiveness of Snyder’s brilliant but subtle approach and acquiesce by taking the easy route and making things more “fun” and straightforward. I’d hate to lose all the complexity and philosophical layers.
I think it’d be great if WB continued to expand the DC Universe with serious autuer films, but maybe they scale them to $150 Million budgets instead of $200+ Million budgets. This would be more in line with the fact that the general audience doesn’t pore out for sophisticated, serious films as it does for fun, popcorn flicks. I, for one, would love to see several more movies in the vein of MoS and BvS, and maybe with a $150 Million budget everyone can be happy with $700-800 Million in box office revenue, rather than aiming for more than $1 Billion.
Yeah, I was thinking about something similar just today. I loved BvS for how complex and challenging it is – but I acknowledge that there’s really no reason to make a big tentpole movie like this THAT complex and challenging. I’d be fine if they kept their biggest event movies a little more straightforward (yet still epic – think Dark Knight Rises), and reserved the more experimental stuff for more niche movies that they could make on smaller budgets and scales.
Will you please do Batman V Superman answers? With a film as jam-packed as this, there are bound to be misconceptions…
Mark Hughes from Forbes was on http://www.batman-on-film.com/podcast_2016_vol2-ep21_BvS_Bill-Mark-Rick_3-30-16.html
He made good points why the critics came down on BvS so hard. It kind of pisses me of how one-sided the film is being treated by the press, misconstruing Kevin Smith who though the film was OK or the illogical/utterly overblown Suicide Squad re-shoot rumors come to mind, BUT bullshit walks and money talks.
I am not saying that BvS can´t be improved on and the Ultimate Cut should have gotten a limited release but the amount of scrutiny DC/WB got since 2013 is somewhat problematic.
This is our future now fellow DC fans. Lol.
“It kind of pisses me of how one-sided the film is being treated by the press”
One of the reasons I went dark for all websites besides this one. Even my local newspaper can´t mention BvS without stating stuff like: “The new Batman v Superman film is doing well at the Box Office, despite the critics´ disapproval”, “A film hated by the film judges, but still making some money”, they can´t even whisper about BvS without highlighting the negative reaction from some critics.
Not only that, but I recall some time ago about that poor cancer patient, Bazz, who´s very last wish was to watch BvS. When the request to apread the word came out, “journalist” websites were mocking such thing and were quick to dismiss it and pretend he doesn´t exist. It wasn´t after his tragic passing when those same websites begun to endlessly trash talk DC for “actively ignoring” a needed person and “allowing” him to die without getting his wish granted.
Turns out Bazz did watched a cut of BvS before his passing:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpt1/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/12671889_981052708637669_1931022469352171538_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9
Snyder and WB NEVER boasted about it. Even after all the dirt and slander they recieved, they never threw it into anyone´s face nor were show off, they thought that just making a good action was enough, that shows what kind of people Snyder and co. are.
As I stated in my review, this film and those who made it can really represent Superman in-film. No matter how hard they try, how much good they make, many people will always dislike them and find faults in everything they do. But there are people that can appreciate the good they do and accept them, people that will believe in them and support them when many don´t.
Regardless, that meta aspect is something that makes me enjoy this film and relate to those in it even more.
Not saying that I hated the movie. I loved it, but I really hope that WB showed Bazz the Ultimate Cut.
I’m inclined to think the Ultimate Cut isn’t even completed at this point.
It’ll be released till July, 1 month before “Suicide Squad” hits theaters. And thinking about SS, one thing that film will let us know for sure is what is what some critics seem to harbour a prejudice against.
If they warm up to it and praise it, then they only harbour a prejudice against Snyder himself. But if they receive it just like this one, or worse, then that will prove that what they dislike is all of what DC is doing, not only Snyder himself. The same could be said about the reception of “Wonder Woman”.
But anyway, BvS already surpassed MoS at the B.O., I’m sure websites are all over the place seizing the opportunity to trash talk it using the obvious drop from last week, but what matters is that, as of now, this film has been no more than 10 days in theaters worldwide (it took way longer for MoS to reach the 600m), so it will obviously keep winning more profit and will keep the original plan going.
This film’s purpose was to open the gate of the DC Films’ “Justice League Universe”, not becoming the highest grossing film ever. At the end of the day it doesn’t matters if it reaches the billion, it only matters that it becomes an overall success with audiences, something that it already did.
I’m really worried about the future of the DC Universe right now, not on a creative sense necessarily, but I’m scared that this universe will end before it begins. The second weekend nose-dive is a pretty bleak sign. I’m looking all over the place for reassurance that the DC slate is safe and that Snyder won’t have to retire early b/c people just don’t get him.
It’s still No.1, though. So far is a hit, and by the time it gets out of theaters it’ll be an even greater hit.
Warner Bros isn’t worried about the numbers.
“We’re not concerned with the drop. No matter how you slice it, to get to $52 million on any given weekend is an enormous accomplishment. We’re most focused on where we are in total. And our global number is huge.”
“We’re most focused on where we are in total. And our global number is huge.”
I think the WB/DC slate is safe. Sure, BvS had a big second weekend drop, but that’s in comparison to the 4th biggest worldwide opening of all time. It will pass $800 Million, so it’s making money, and it will do really well on home media. In fact, BvS will pass 9 out of the 12 MCU films. And Man of Steel made more than each of the Phase 1 MCU films except The Avengers. So WB/DC is 2 for 2, and even the critics of BvS admit that it made them excited for the Wonder Woman movie and the Justice League movie.
My only concern is that they try to go too light-hearted for JL. I love the tone they have on MoS and BvS.
It’s true that MOS made more than any of the phase 1 marvel movies, but it also cost more, also, Superman and Batman are the 2 most popular comic characters in the world, the fact that if a 4th Iron Man movie came out it would probably beat out a Superman/Batman movie has to be a little bit concerning don’t you think? btw listening to your podcast now! Listen to mine in return? It’s the Gabealicious Podcast.
As has been adressed quite a bit in the run-up to BvS, Batman and Superman movies (and Spider-Man even moreso) can afford to spend more due to the fact that they will make so much in merchandizing and offset so many advertising costs with promotional partners (they might not have gotten paid for those Turkish Airlines, Jeep or Dodge ads, but it amounted to free advertising for them, a huge value). They also tend to do very well on home video, better even than Marvel movies, so there’s that to consider as well. I think WB knows what they’re doing as far as costs go with these things.
Thanks, Gabe. I’m traveling this weekend so it’s a great time for me to check out Gabealicious.
I turned my Batman v Superman ticket around to bask it the film´s memory and a gift coupon for a serving of Gyoza showed up. Lucky and the restaurant was even next to my work pace. No film ever managed to give me free food!
The Ultimate Cut has a rating so i expect it to be done. Having a genially negative reaction / or writing such a review for MoS or BvS is fine and all but the yellow journalism around the film is pretty sad. Remember all the nonsense casting criticisms? They were an act of kindless by comparison. I expect nothing better from online publication (a necessary evil in my book) but the New York Times and so on should at least be capable of reporting a story without click bait headlines and unfounded rumor mongering. The is our future now but we at least got 2 great films with more to come! (Suicide Squad is my favorite team up comic btw.)
Only a Snyder film could make 700 mil in less than 2 weeks and still be considered and i quote “Critic and Audience proof”. Urgh. Do you all know how few films manage to reach a billon or come close to it? The Bayformers also make more money with the toys than the films, which are some of the highest grossing films of all time, so never forget them. I remember buying Batman and Robin toys as a child, as they looked close to the comics and not the film. (Forever is worse btw.)
The film will also start to turn profitable within a few days. Synder´s films all have strong dvd shelf life (the Ultimate Cut will make some serious money!). The mentioned toys and all the promotional comics/reprints are all equally profitable for the comic/marketing division of DC proper. T-Shirts, loot crates and so on can´t be forgotten either.
Merchandising! Merchandising! Where the real money from the movie is made. BvS: the T-shirt, BvS: the coloring book,…
“Critic and Audience proof”
Could somebody explain such phrase to me? I’ve heard people use it to describe “Transformers”, others to describe the MCU, it is a positive statement or a negative one?
Anyway, you’re right about the amount of profit films like this win from merchandise and other stuff. MoS paid itself even before coming out in theaters, and made a killing with DVD sales. BvS has already won way more than MoS ever did and will only continue to win more.
The reason transformers movie earn alot of money despite of negative review is because they are incredibly fun to watch. You know being great popcorn entertainment and family-friendly good time movie which is something that most of the general audiences really love.
I understand that BvS is a very unique and deep film. I love that movie for what it is but at the same time i understand that this movie may not exactly be so accessible to the general audiences. That is the reason why most of the family friendly movie tends to make more money like star wars, jurassic world and mcu despite of whatever the negative review it had on them. Most of the general audiences don really pay that much attention to those review. Why do you think art or auteur type of film always make less than popcorn flick types of movie. General audiences don really care so much about the art of the film. They just want to be entertained which is a really shame if you ask me
The last Transformers film from what I understand took place in China for a portion of it and China is the second biggest market out there. Most of that billion is thanks to China
I do hate Bayformers (the decent toon film from the 80s is how it is done) but i am fine with them printing money and agree that BvS is 100% inaccessible on the 1st viewing to people who never read DC comics for a period of time. It´s a love letter to the 2nd half of the 80s and the 1st half of the 90s and even the (minimally weird) editing just like a comics. Open up DKR and compare.
“Criticproof” explains itself and none should wonder why people want to see explosions go BOOM in 3D.
Audience proof though, ho boy. The online reaction is quite “wild” but since when has reddit and friends been representative of anything, and just proves that specific writers have a very narrow world-view.
BvS´s crawl to a billion (a psychologically important milestone for some) will be a limp but only 24 films ever managed to make a billion and being one of the 25 highest grossing films of all time is not a failure.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/
Also remember how many films are also being made of BvS´s back.
I have a hard time behaving that WB executives will cry themselves to sleep after finding out that than may outperform LotR and all but the last Potter film! BvS also gave us the BEST episode of Conan O’Brien ever and is actively promoting DC Rebirth. One of the books will be called Trinity. Synergy, i love it! (Nothing against Marvel btw.)
Bvs is lastly the ONLY block-buster for a period of nearly a month! The big sites all counted the clicks and now know which over the top stories will sell the best.
Accusations of misogyny, gore/torture porn or whatever is what´s coming to David Ayer. Let´s not even think about poor Wonder Woman… and obviously JL 1/2.
I know Doc is busy with work, so in his absence I’ve posted analysis of the first six scenes in BvS. I just put up an analysis of the apartment scene with Lois and Clark. http://jluniverse.podomatic.com or Justice League Universe Podcast (DC Films) on iTunes
One thing I interpreted is that the apartment scene shows why the Christopher Reeve version of Superman doesn’t work in this universe. Superman just saved Lois, and now Clark Kent is coming home. He’s basically giving the Christopher Reeve version a shot — “Hey, I was going to cook dinner and we could have cute, campy rom-com antics!” But we immediately see why this doesn’t work. Lois brings up the Senate hearing, and she’s worried that Clark’s love for her might put him in comprising situations, and she knows something wasn’t right with the African incident. These are all serious repercussions and the movie takes them seriously, so it wouldn’t make sense to go campy and light-hearted, ignoring the controversy around Superman’s actions.
Great podcasts, SAM. I am looking forward to hearing your episodes covering the scene where Lex enters the Kryptonian Scout Ship and your take on the deleted scene.
Oh yeah, I think all of Lex’s interactions with the scout ship were great. I loved the slow-mo and the music swell when Lex was walking down the gangplank because that was truly his moment as a character. He had manipulated people to get what he wanted, and it was access to new knowledge, we his character is always trying to leverage into power.
Yo Sam
Check out this article: http://pulpklatura.tumblr.com/post/141843209469/batman-v-superman-the-modern-revenge-tragedy
This is a insightful article of explaning BvS being inspired by classical shakespeare tragedy story like Hamlet. Also that if you noticed BvS is utilizing the non-linear narrative storytelling which is following the tropes and the formula of shakespeare and Greek tragic story. If you ask me that is really unique and new among the current straightforward narrative storytelling which is now a very common in today blockbuster movie. You can say BvS is actually attempt to eschew the current movie formula of storytelling. Also BvS have a lot of references and allusions to Excalibur and King Arthur so that make BvS more like a myth story rather than a superhero story.
Awesome. Thanks. I think you and the article are right that one big reason for the divisiveness is that it’s not using the typical hero’s journey or three-act structure. People expected that, and were thrown off (subconsciously) when they got something different.
Thanks man and I love your podcast especially on the part where BvS is telling us a message that there is not absolute good or evil. It based entirely on your own choice and you can be either good or bad. That’s really deep and thought provoking and I like that. Unfortunately this kind of thing it went over everyone heads
“BvS is telling us a message that there is not absolute good or evil. It based entirely on your own choice and you can be either good or bad. That’s really deep and thought provoking-”
“-Unfortunately this kind of thing it went over everyone heads”
Or just chose to label it as a disservice to the characters. According to some, there IS an absolute definition of good and evil, and Superman is supposed to represent this incorruptible being that never succumbs to evil and only does good, and this film supposedly didn’t do that.
Funny thing is, this film did exactly that: Superman did good and only good, he NEVER fell to the traps of Luthor who was forcing him to kill Batman, even if that meant saving his own mother. He saved Luthor from Doomsday even after all the evil and ill he caused him. He gave everything to save the very world that shunned him. Superman was the most incorruptible character in the whole film, what people in real life can aspire to be.
I know this is sounding redundant at this point, but I’m inclined to think that those who dislike this take on Superman are people that actively want to dislike it.
I totally agree with Heart Of Steel. I think Superman does embody absolute goodness in the movie, and what I meant in my analysis was that the world around him (which is very realistic to our world, I think) has moved beyond the absolutes of good and evil, and they reject or try to take down anything that purports to be pure good. Perry says that it’s not 1938 anymore and he also says that the American conscience died with the assassinations of the 1960s.
But Superman remains steadfast, even though he has some doubts about whether he should do so. (Some Superman fans may be mad that he even had doubts at all, but I liked this angle because it shows that goodness is a choice and yes Superman did stay good and pure in his actions.)
You’re right to point out that Superman passed both Bruce’s and Lex’s tests. He refused to become the monster that Batman thought he might become, and he was even willing to sacrifice himself multiple times.
Hey Hey Sam loving your podcast, I wanted to add to your point about Superman and his representation of ultimate good. It makes the line “no one stays good in this world” so much more poignant. He has his doubts as to what to do, and he essentially decides to talk to Bruce and try to reason with him, hence his losing the fight and the line “stay down, if I wanted it, you’d be dead already.” One person said in a podcast once that Superman is a bright hero in a very dark world and I believe Snyder understands this perfectly. I think people look at the world that Superman is in and it corrupts their view of who this Superman ACTUALLY is. They create a Superman in their own minds that fits into this world when in fact he doesn’t in many ways. It’s almost like the world has no room for hope, and when it dies it causes a “hope-boom” (like it? Like time-boom or sonic-boom :-D) that reverberates across the world.
WB updated their DC Films slate.
Wonder Woman no longer has to release the same week as Transformers 5. It now releases 21 days earlier. They also added two untitled movies to the slate.
Suicide Squad – August 5, 2016
Wonder Woman – June 2, 2017
Justice League Part One – November 17, 2017
The Flash – March 16, 2018
Aquaman – July 27, 2018
Untitled Movie – October 5, 2018
Shazam – April 5, 2019
Justice League Part Two – June 14, 2019
Untitled Movie – November 1, 2019
Cyborg – April 3, 2020
Green Lantern Corps – June 19, 2020
I’m guessing Oct 2018 is The Batman, and Nov 2019 might be Suicide Squad 2 or (less likely) Wonder Woman 2 or Superman 2.
It seems to me that BvS is doing well enough for WB, if they’re adding movies to the slate.
There is a Time Warner Quarterly conference call coming up in May. That might be a good time for someone to call in and ask a question about the new slate.
If anything, that proves that the DC Films slate is NOT in jeopardy. “Dawn of Justice” is most likely already a success big enough for WB to remain confident, continue with their plans and officially announce 2 more films.
Any info for batman voice modulator/throat microphone?
I assume that 2018 is the date for “Citizen Cape” (note the Oscar season placement!) with Batfleck doing a mix of Death in the Family + Under the Red Hood. 2019 looks like MoS 2,5 to me. A fast tracked Suicide Squad could also be in our future but they need to lock it down with 3 films a year as JL Dark and more Vertigo are also in production.
The (MoS related) Krypton tv show is coming, so is an office comedy with Booster Gold or Blue Beetle and probably something Teen Titans / Grayson related. Then we then have our 3 toon films a year (Killing Joke looks a worthy followup to Year One and DKR), Justice League Action will debut this fall and another Gods and Monsters web series is coming this summer. Only the decent Constantine suffered a cancellation recently and the rest truck on (i am done with Supergirl and Arrow btw.) so WB basically hit a gold mine!
We have come a long way from the Schumacher / Superman IV days… or that 90s JLA pilot.
I wrote all of that down as WB´s film division had problems to push a billion last year, not that you would read any of that on the web right now. Sigh.
The somewhat needed / high profile comics line relaunch (not quite a reboot) is what matters most to me and 3/4+ of the lineup looks good to great so we appear to live in a DC renaissance. The cherry on top would be to win back some of the market share. Marvel´s current non-Star Wars related comics are a bit of a mess, in my eyes. Poor Fantastic Four…
Hey Doc,
I’ll paraphrase just about any and every sports talk show out there and say “long time listener, first time poster” (okay, maybe not long, long time…more like about a week before BvS came out…but diligently working my way through the podcasts!). Like many above, I look forward to what in depth analysis of the film you can provide.
A good friend of mine, my girlfriend and I have continued to talk about this film ever since its release, “chewing our food” as you’d say, and remain mystified by the negative press and reviews surrounding it. It’s been fantastic to find a safe harbor of like-minded folks that have an overall positive opinion on the film. In fact, was glad to see that someone else here caught the Excalibur nod Snyder bookends the film with (I thought I was the only one!).
I’d offer my thoughts on the film, but I don’t want to get long winded in a simple message. Instead, I’ll post a link to my blog for you (and other posters) to read at their leisure:
http://www.nukingthecat.com/#!Movie-Review-Batman-V-Superman-Dawn-of-Justice/cu6k/56f91a9c0cf2e1f8bbc02b80
After 4 viewings now…and a 5th planned one just as soon as my work week ends…I maintain the opinion that this film is one of the most amazing pieces of superhero cinema ever produced.
All the best and keep up the great work!
SMR
WB´s boxoffice breakdown i mention above:
http://www.thewrap.com/hollywood-slugger-warner-bros-strikes-out-at-2015-box-office/
This is a very good read on DC in general( and a bit of bashing to marvel)
http://www.the-fanboy-perspective.com/great-power-but-no-responsibility.html
Hey, DrAwkward, you are going to have to come up with an answer to the criticism of Superman for not going to save his mother as he did with Lois. Snyder tried to answer it by saying there wer limits to Superman’s hearing but clearly he saved his mother from the hands of Zod.
That one’s pretty simple I think. In Man of Steel, Zod’s arrival at the Kent farm was not especially stealthy. Lots to hear. In BvS, Martha is bound and gagged. There’s no unique sound for Clark to hear. Also, Superman’s super senses in the movie universe are not as all-powerful as in some of the comics, so I think he would have needed Martha screaming or something like that for him to be able to pick her out.
The world´s needs were more important with the meltdown of Zod´s ship in the middle of the city on the one hand and he would have put Martha into great danger as the goons were primed to kill her if HE showed up.
Going with a dark horse, who he known to be a great manhunter, is highly logical and Bruce needed a redemption from a screenwriting standpoint.
Martha was also indeed gagged and inside a huge city as Snydra mentioned. That deleted scene needs to be in the Ultimate cut and no block buster has been pulled apart as hard, regarding goddamn everything, as BvS, in quite some time. How did people managed to enjoy Nolan´s Batman or the Winter Solder?
I don´t get it… DrAwkward will be able to spend years on the film. Lol.
(Superman was probably already in Africa during the opening, let´s wait for the whole scene on dvd there.)
Hi all,
Interesting thing to look forward to in ultimate cut:
In Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, one of the pivotal moments of the movie involves Lex Luthor kidnapping Superman’s mom, Martha. In a recent interview with IGN, Zack Snyder was asked why Superman couldn’t hear his mom cry out for help when she was in trouble.
“I think all the way – to me, from Metropolis to Smallville is probably just on the edge of his range of hearing” Snyder explained. “Also the clutter of the city makes it difficult as well.”
Snyder then went into more detail about a deleted scene that explained why Superman doesn’t always look for problems around the city:
“We had a scene that we cut from the movie where he tries to look for her when he finds out that Lex has got her,” Snyder continued. “It was a slightly dark scene that we cut out because it sort of represented this dark side. Because when he was looking for his mom he heard all the cries of all the potential crimes going on in the city, you know when you look.
“I kind of like the idea that he’s taught himself not to look because if he looks it’s just neverending, right? You have to know when, as Superman, when to intervene and when not to. Or not when not to, you can’t be everywhere at once, literally you can’t be everywhere at once, so he has to be really selective in a weird way about where he chooses to interfere.”
Somebody needs to do a podcast on the Martha scene. It is getting a lot of criticism on the Internet. I thought if was very unique and brilliant. It only took a name to stop Batman where you needed kryptonite to stop Superman.
I really don understand why MARTHA scene should even be criticised?? That scene is a very profound moment for both batman and superman. It shows what is in common for both of them despite of their differences by showcasing that both of them have a mother that deeply loved and cared for. This scene really emphasize on how much the importance of family is.
I guess MARTHA scene would be much more appealing to those who love their family or someone who love their loved one.
@Leon, what you say is true, but yet people pose the question, “why would he use his mothers name instead of just saying ‘my mother'”. Of course, my philosophy on that would be the fact that Batman not only just holds a grudge and vendetta against Superman, he holds on against aliens – specifically Kryptonians who have “the power to take out the entire human race”. Just saying “save my mother” would probably indicate that she was Kryptonian at first guess. Batman would just kill Superman and then go to kill his mother as well. At least by saying Martha, it would give Batman a brief pause. Somebody needs to post a good diatribe against the critics of this scene.
DNNO1
You should read this: https://tmblr.co/ZIcAEu254l4Pp
This is a very good read addresses on some of the dialogue choices in MARTHA scene
The fact that Batman v Superman made quite a profit at the box office, despite its unconventional approach, and considering it’s not “general audience-friendly”, amazes me. I wouldn’t even call the movie a typical blockbuster, due to Snyder’s more artistic and philosophical vision of the characters and the plot, and yet it’s making as much money as your usual pop-corn flick. I don’t know how they did it, but practically, a quasi-art house film with superheroes in it, which has themes ranging from Freudian psychology to revenge literature, is currently making 900 mil. at the box office.
I loved the movie to bits. I’m already thinking of the possibilities or directions for the Justice league storyline. One of the few conundrums I have recently discovered in my musings is how Kal El survives or resurrects at the end of BvS yet Zod does not. My initial loophole is twofold 1.Clark is a natural born Kryptonian, while Zod is spliced, moreover Kal has the entire codex permeate his system unlike other Kryptonians. That would be a pretty neat but ‘boring’ get out. 2.The second idea is more intriguing albeit would probably meet with more criticism for tainting the loved Superhero. My thinking is that Superman will resurrect because he was infected with the Doomsday genome that drove his body to re-animate itself rendering him immortal like Doomsday. The implication is that henceforth Superman just as in Superman Doomed arc is forever part good(Kal) part bad(doomsday) a Jekyll and Hyde that may not go down well with the fans but would be good to explore at least in the future Justice League installments ,plus it gives the writers an option to explore an evil-Bizzaro superman.
The 3rd option is that they actually tell us that the floating soil is Brainiac ship coming to collect Superman to re-animate him as Bizzaro.So that part of the first Justice League film we have them battle Bizzarro and Brainiac, and Flash races back in time just moments before Superman’s sacrifice taking him into the future with him(leaving WW to kill doomsday with the spear).In the future due to a time paradox of an anomalous existance in the timeline, Bizzarro is erased ,Kal and the Justice league helps defeat Brainiac by using Cyborg’s boomtube technology to send Brainiac into another dimension,but perhaps Cyborg’s Boomtube tech alerts Darkseid to a pathway for his forces from his galaxy as the motherbox is Apokalyptian/New Genesis technology.
Really great reasoning. I honestly never even thought about how they were going to make Clark live when Zod died.
Excited to see how to work their way out of it logically.
SAM, I would like to commend you for the great commentary you give on your blog with a scene by scene breakdown of Batman vs Superman.A really great read and you go into lots of detail on the themes and subtexts. I would like to add that Lex’s world view in my mind is not simply that power cannot be benevolent(at least in his experience) but that this idea is backed up by history itself.The way I see it throughout human history we’ve had some sort of ‘epochal shifts’ where mere mortal men swayed public opinion and were embraced as providentially sent, yet humanity was dragged into depravity and chaos by following such figures.That is why devils coming from the sky is not just a christian symbol of the fall of angels but also ‘enlightened’ leaders coming as it were to lead humanity into a utopian golden age. The crusades, French revolution,Russian revolution, German national socialism are but examples. So to imagine where a superman could lead humanity when mere mortals led to some real low points in history in their name is a potent question the movie puts to the audience. This is a nod to our very own eschatological beleifs and myths , which are replete with evil figures-read ‘antichrists’ leading humanity through hell and to hell, before a true golden dawn of heaven.It is interesting how the Superman films fit close to the Biblical figures MoS is basically a Moses story, BvS is a Jesus story, I foresee that Justice league with Darkseid being the big bad will be a book of Revelations type narrative with apocalyptic theme and Superman making his 2nd coming,to battle the dark forces of Ares,Darkseid(latest rumour has it Ares and Ocean master are the main villains of JL1) e.t.c.